Bellicose Bumpkin

Some people will use any and all the legalities to try to stop casinos.

Others feel strongly that tribes shouldn’t be allowed sovereign rights on land put into trust because it puts them in a unique class among American citizens. They may or may not care about casinos.

Several area residents are adamantly against Indian sovereignty. I think they have every right to hold that opinion.

I don’t care much about the legal technicalities and have no interest in reading research about this subject.

My position is that I’d like to see the right thing, the just and moral thing, done to compensate those Indians who have managed to maintain a tribal identity since colonial days despite a cruel and systematic effort to wipe them out.

I think it very likely that the Mashpee Wampanoag will get NO land put into trust – not even the land in Mashpee. They’ll be no worse off than they were all these years and will still have the benefits that come with federal recognition.

I don’t care much about the legal technicalities and have no interest in reading research about this subject.Interest or no interest these are legal questions that are central to this issue. An understanding of them helps us plan for the road ahead.

The selectmen, other than Adam, have done a terrible job researching this complex issue. They have taken their “data” straight from the tribe and investors and ignored the experts within their midst(CFO). This is just one small example of the tragicomedy that is the Middleboro casino issue.

I have high hopes that Rullo and McKinnow will break with the tradition of stubborn refusal to research and understand the issues.

The advisability of contingency planning for the town notwithstanding should be a no-brainer.

However I wasn’t charged with the responsibility.

I have my opinion about what is plainly and simply the right thing to do by way of reparations to the Indians for what was done to them the interlopers who engaged in genocide.

Anyone who believes that affirmative action was appropriate for the descendants of the African slaves and doesn’t think the original Americans deserve sovereignty is, in my opinion, holding an irrational double standard.

After all, as horrible as slavery was, Africans were brought here to work while Indian were here first and a nearly successful effort was made to wipe them out.

While someone like Carol Kelly may have been “hurt” because she lost her home to a tribal reservation this pales in comparison to what the Indians lost.

I’d like to hear what you and others think would represent justice for the tribes?

Do they deserve reparations at all?

I don’t think sovereignty is needed and in many cases doesn’t do that much for tribes.

Federal recognition already brings benefits to help the tribal government and members. I would go further and advocate that the economic disadvantage that many tribes have, would be ameliorated by education and housing benefits.

A free college education for every member of a recognized tribe, along with assistance to purchase a home, would do a lot immediately.

So, Hal seems to be saying that the sole issue that justifies his support of a casino is, in fact, reparations. Is that correct?

Anonymous said…
So, Hal seems to be saying that the sole issue that justifies his support of a casino is, in fact, reparations. Is that correct?No.

Apparently you missed what I’ve been writing for almost two years. The reasons are well paid salaried jobs with residents getting preference after Native Americans, an economic boost to the region, revenue for the town, and some long overdue justice for the tribes we almost wiped out.

However, I the only reason I supported the casino was the last one, what would be wrong with that?

Bumpkin. I posted this on my site – second best blog in Mboro – in response to Hal’s post. Post it if you want since it is just a duplication of a debate at the “second best.” Shhhh….Hal thinks Heckuva is #1. LOL!

Reparations? What is the price tag for a country? A culture? A history? How about the long dead ancestors? Centuries of deceit, neglect, thievery and just about anything else one can think of. With reparations each aggrieved party can line up at the cash register and get their hand out. Won’t change the past. What you can do is change the present. I’d love to get my financial hooks into Mother Russia for hundreds of years of serfdom.

When reparations come in I might as well pack up with virtually everyone else in this town and every town or maybe get away with paying rent.

I find it laughable with the shallow attempts at various justifications by pointing out references to constitutional law or past legal decisions. The very law written by the very peoples that invaded and grabbed what they wanted. Not a Tribe? How freaking clueless is that?

Folks should be thankful that the tribal remnants are as docile as they are or you would have a situation in this country that would make Al Qaeda look like a Daisy Scout Troop.

All this talk about what should be is an esoteric discussion.

I’m more interested in what is and what will be – and that’s why I find it interesting to study current law as it applies to our situation.

What I want is irrelevant. If the Mashpee are not eligible for reservation land under current law – law that is not going to change – we should be aware of that fact. At this point I’m not sure one way or the other but see a good chance that they will get no reservation land anywhere.

Whenever discussions of these issues come up, all I can think of is how hapless the BOS are(not counting McKinnon and Rullo … yet). They invited a super complex entity to town, with no idea of the ramifications. “Armed” with this lack of knowledge, they rushed us into a shoddy deal shutting down the people who had made an effort to study the issue.

Even worse, in the 2 years since, they’ve made no effort to figure it out.

The just and moral thing is to build a casino?

Do you think that Native Americans are discriminated against today in the same fashion as an African American?

To answer “anonymous” first because it is an easy question: I don’t know because I haven’t lived anywhere that I understand Indian have suffered a lot of discrimination. I don’t think we get anywhere comparing one oppressed group with another to see which one had it the worst.

I don’t see justice and morality coming into what a casino “is”. Gambling on reservation land happens to be the business opportunity Indians were given.

I doubt BB’s characterization of the discussion of reparations as an esoteric discussion, i.e., one not likely to be understood by very many readers, is true. He may just mean it is something he’s not interested in just as I’m not particularly interested in the legalities.

If nobody here wants to discuss the issue of what the dominant society owes or doesn’t owe to a group their predecessors harmed, and specifically reparations to Indian tribes, I’ll keep my comments on this subject over on Bogo’s blog where I posted my most recent comments on atonement and the expiation of sin in religion and society and how I think it relates to Indian sovereignty.

If the Mashpee Wampanoags were a Tribe with roots in Middleborough, why didn’t they include the Town in their original application for recognition?

Why would anyone endorse the “Sovereign State” process that has created Tribes and Reservations that are toxic waste dumps, filled with mining waste, asbestos landfills, unregulated coal power plants, uranium slag and have exploited the majority of the Tribe?
Rather than endorsing something based on an outdated concept of history, has anyone considered how abused the membership has been?

It seems to me that affirmative action assured EQUAL RIGHTS and not exclusive privileges.

When you consider that the Narragansett Tribe wanted to sell cigarettes cheap and that was their only business venture, does this make sense?

Were we defending the right of a small group of people to exclude themselves from the laws and taxes?

Hal,

How many jobs are going to be brought to the region and what are the salaries? Where is the information available?

What will the impacts cost? Where is the information available?

nan

Defense of Sovereign Rights in the original colonies doesn’t seem consistent with history and seems to intermingle the injustices that transpired in westward expansion with New England. How is that defensible?

I’m totally confused by this comment -

“My position is that I’d like to see the right thing, the just and moral thing, done to compensate those Indians who have managed to maintain a tribal identity since colonial days despite a cruel and systematic effort to wipe them out.”

How is allowing international casino investors to profit just and moral?

I think Hal needs to research the amount of monetary benefits that recognised tribes recieve from the federal government. Millions. The Mashpee’s membership is about 1500, isn’t it? I’d say they’re doing pretty damn well. The MASHPEE WERE NOT A TRIBE WHEN THE FIRST SETTLERS ARRIVED. THEY ARE A “GREATLY MIXED” (OTHER/NATIVE+ ETC.) TRIBE. TO SAY THAT WE OWE THEM A CASINO IN ADDITION TO THEIR CURRENT BENEFIT IS COMPLETE MADNESS!There,I said it. BTW- That crying indian from the 1970′s commercial is not an indian,just checking.

If we’re talking about reparations for the Wampanoags then I think Hal is barking up the wrong tree.
If the Wampanoags are looking for reparations from the government that mistreated their ancestors, then they should be writing to the English Parliament or the Queen of England.

The white men who interacted with the Wampanoags at the time of first contact were Englishmen who were subjects of the King of England.

Has history been re-written so that the modern federal government of the U.S. has to pay reparations for 400 year old historical events that occurred before the U.S. Federal government even existed?

I’m not denying the U.S. government mistreated Native people but in the case of the Wampanoags, I think the damage was already done by the English government by the time the United States government came into being.

Hal – when I say “esoteric” it means that I don’t think reparations are likely to ever happen so the discussion is academic.

I’m not that interested in talking about the current state of indians, I’m more interested in current law and how it relates to Middleboro and MA LIT in general.

Out west, Indians are impoverished due to a variety of factors including the remote location of reservations. If the Mashpee are impoverished, MA should be looking at what factors are affecting this particular group on the cape and try to address it because you can be sure that other ethnic groups are equally affected.

Recently, the Nobel Peace Prize winner who has written about Africa was interviewed and although she has written extensively about colonization, essentially said “stop using it as an excuse and get on with addressing your own problems and improving your lot.”

Black leaders have said much the same. Affirmative action provided the educational and job opportunities, not a hand out.

You seem to have allowed your personal need for atonement to cloud the argument and obscure you ability to hear what others are saying about the process.

BB:

This is your blog and I defer to your wanting to keep a thread on a particular focus. I’ll answer a few question first and then retire from the debate here.

I’ll keep the discussion on Bogofree.

I’ll leave it to the BIA along with the historians I hope they consult with to determine whether the Mashpee Wampanoag have what fits their definition of a tribe with ancestral roots in Middleboro.

My knowledge of reservations around the country is limited but I do know many tribes were forced onto land that was of no use to the white population before the Indian Gaming Act. That’s why they became what they did.

I view money recognized tribes receive now from the federal government as just a part of the picture. The granting of sovereign rights of land put into trust is a unique way to provide atonement for a wrong done by the dominant white society to all Native Americans from the time of the first colonists.

On whether allowing international casino investors to profit is just and moral: I think it is as long as their money was made honestly (not selling drugs or blood diamonds for example). Is see the criticism of the investors as a red herring because these are just venture capitalists making a business loan.

I think that reparations to the Wampanoag who had three out of 20 of their 20,000 members* killed in King Phillip’s War and who were forced onto Cape Cod is just. This makes it proportionally the costliest war in terms of human life in our history. (Schultz, Eric B.; Michael J. Touglas (2000). “King Philip’s War: The History and Legacy of America’s Forgotten Conflict.)

As for the “crying Indian”, I’d forgotten the story about the actor “Iron Eyes Cody” (LINK) who it turned out was an Italian. This is an interesting story because while a fraud in that regard he was married to a Native American, adopted several India children and was active in Native American causes.

My understanding of affirmative action is that in some cases it gave preferential treatment to minority groups, for example in college admissions.

I’m not a numbers or statistics person and leave such things to BB, Brian Giovanoni and others who are.

The discussion of reparations from Great Britain to Indians for wrongs committed by colonists is, in my opinion, too esoteric for this and most blogs.

Lastly, to address BB’s comment about other ethnic groups struggling economically I want to note that a major resort casino will bring many jobs within an easy commute for many of them.

That’s all from me on this particular blog thread.

—-

* compared to 1 out of 65, or 800 of 52,000 of the colonists.

P.S.: Heckuva.blogspot.com – Brownie, you’re ding a heckuva job isn’t the number one local blog and never will be. However it is only blog with a full line of slogan items you can buy. Combined with Middleboro Matters it is has far more photographs than any other local blog.

It apears that Mr. Brown has failed to hear the oposition arguements beyond the legalities he wants to ignore once again.
Why should we tolerate a nation within a nation where a select group can ignore laws, statutes, bylaws, environmental issues, and taxes? This select group is allowed all of the privileges but none of the costs. The school reimbusement paid by the BIA is less than the cost to local districts. This isn’t to condemn Native Americans but to explain that with privilege, should come the equal price that others pay.

There are Tribes that have grown and prospered without emplying gambling and the Mashpee Wampanoags could do the same without getting into bed with questionable characters as they did. Mr. Brown ignores the corruption behind this process.

Mr. Brown seems to be repeating unsubstantiated arguments to support a casino. For instance, he says be doesn’t really know much about affirmative action, but employed it in terms of moral justification of the LIT process. He doesn’t seem interested in statistics, but employed statistics to minimize the impacts of gambling addiction and bankruptcies.
Mr. Brown has read a book and seems to have lifted figures from that book to justify a colonial war as reason to support a casino.
As far as King Philips’ War being the costliest, clearly, Mr. Brown is speculating and hasn’t done his research.
What I see are shallow arguments lacking facts by a casino supporter which has been a consistent problem with Mr. Brown’s comments.
Mr. Brown has made a decision without having the facts.
As far as his continued promotion of an offensive site, that seems to be Mr. Brown’s continuation of a double standard that has been previously called to his attention. It appears a convenient excuse for Mr. Brown to fail to address the flaws in his arguments or to ignore his critics: when you can’t discuss the facts because you lack them, retreat!

Several casino opponents referred to the original agreement with Mboro as being worth $7 million per year, to which casino supporters responded with the correction that the agreement was worth $11 million because of the ‘hotel tax.’ Now it seems that the hotel is off the drawing board and opponents were correct.
If the town had determined the real costs of the impacts and the price tag was assessed in today’s dollars as being, let’s say, $14 million per year, would you still defend this project, Mr. Brown?
I’m having great difficulty with someone who ignores the numbers that were never formulated by experts, while promoting his support.
The ambulance study report that was prepared by Matrix is a case in point. A certain group convinced itself that the town service would be profitable and refuse to believe otherwise, maybe at the expense of not opening another fire station on a regular basis. Even when the Town Planner was listening to the presentation, she refused to accept the facts and challenged his statistics which were already conservative. Because no qualified experts, other than Matrix, have been retained to assess the impacts, dollar figures are lacking at this time.
If Mr. Brown would review Truth to Power he might realize that others have had no such problem.
Could it be that Mboro’s BOS didn’t want you to know just how bad this deal is for the town?
I have often wondered if that wasn’t part of the necessity of distracting the Regional Task Force from its task with a pretense of wanting an undeserved seat at the table. The distraction of purpose successfully delayed the RTF from compile figures.

Not to be pedantic – but as one of the main “numbers-based” opponents, we’ve maintained that the deal was worth just under $9M

The seven specified in the deal, and slightly less then half of the revenue projected by the town bringing the $4m down to just under $2M

The ambulance service was sold as a “hidden” $1M benefit at the presentation given just before TMFH.

Bumpkin,
Are you ready to correct your revenue figures for the casino that will never come to represent that $7 million figure (and declining in value with each pasing year)?
Have you added in the cost of the ambulance service that is costing the town money and not being funded by the Tribe?
Did someone accept Scotty’s “18 months,” “Inevitable” buzzwords and start up that costly town service?

You know, the analysis I dashed out in July 2007 has held up pretty well over time.

Not bad considering I did it in the 15 minutes between the time when the IGA was given to the public and TMFH.

So, Bumpkin, guess you’re just pretty smart!
It looks like instead of losing the $150K you predicted, there’s also the $2 mill in hotel tax ya gotta add to the loss since Shawn Hendricks said that would go.

If Palmer figured the additional E.L.L. teachers would cost
$1,682,000, the new elementary school would cost $40 million, new school for the upper grades would cost $40 to $100 million, how come the best Mboro’s Superintendent could come up with were the repair costs? Since the School Committee endorsed a casino, do you suppose they could answer that question? When they endorsed it, they didn’t have any agreement to go by, so wouldn’t have known all that was available was $7 million.

Something seems pretty fishy to me!

Hal, you said:

While someone like Carol Kelly may have been “hurt” because she lost her home to a tribal reservation this pales in comparison to what the Indians lost.Hurt? The situation with the Senica Nation and what they did to all those people goes beyond hurt. But of course, you are sitting in your nice comfy home without worry that you will be harrassed, threatened, and force to leave your home of 20+ years without any retribution. You admit that you don’t bother with the research and your ignorance shows.

Retributions were made for the wrongs done by the Federal Government…it is called the ICCA – Indian Claims Commission Act. Read about it, you may actually learn something. Might I also suggest reading Going to Pieces….a great book about the dimanteling of America written by an Indian and portrays the true nature of life on reservations and how some Indian Tribes take advantage of LIT and our Goverment.

Using the argument that the wrongs that were done to Native Americans as a reason to support casinos, land and homes being taken away from American, taxpaying citizens, is akin to the abusive relationship where one spouse, during an argument, constantly brings up something the other had done in the past and already apologized for. Fighting about, or feeling the need – no, the right for retribution for things already apologized for – and where retributions have been made is what is wrong. But according to many, we should still feel guilty about what happened 400 years ago. Really?

When will retribution be made, Hal? What will it take? The Mashpee getting LIT and a casino? Will retributions be made then??? What about the other Tribes in Massachusetts? Will they have retribution if the Mashpee get a casino or do we all just hand over the entire country to people who claim some inkling of Indian ancestry? When does it end? Please, enlighten me….

As far as Carol goes, you should take the time to listen to her story before you make assumptions and have the audacity to make such an irresponsible comment on a blog.